Men and Women's Sizes: (Discussion and Estimator)

Link to kids sizes.

As a convenience, I am providing a calculator to help you estimate people's sweater designer measurements based on their "store size".  This page has a discussion of sizes, and  provides for men and women's sweater dimension.  Warning: This estimator may not match the one in the "full" generators.  This is because the I found a different "standards" table!

To use these estimators (misses, womens/petite, men), pull down the appropriate size. The table will provide my guesses (based on supposedly standard catalog size information) for the wearer's size. I have made some judgments when determining ease.  I'm not going to explain them all, but I have inserted a few notes. In general, my ease values are for "moderate" fit.    If you have no idea what size someone is, but do  have a tape meausure, you might want to make sure you read this part.


After you knit your first sweater, decide if you agree with my ease judgments or not.

The estimator for misses:

Please read the discussion of US women's sizes if you are want to know something about US standard sizes. 
All values are in inches.

If a woman is very busty, you may want to estimate most measurements based on the average between the fullest bust measurement and her "upper" bust measurement. The upper bust is measured just under the underarms, and give a better frame measurement.  Do use the full bust measuremnt to draft the chest.  Also, do pay attention to the arm size.

Alternatively, if the woman is busty, use the "Women's" sizes. (Some are smaller than  you think.  Theoretically, one of the differences between "Women" and "Misses" is that "Women" are bustier than "Misses" with similar shoulder widths.)

Choose your dress size. (These are based on US catalog sizes.)
 Pull down:

Body dimension
 Ease
 Sweater Dimension
(To enter in "EZ generators)
Fullest part of Bust

Shoulder Width


Neck Width before adding trim: At the absolute minimum, the neck needs to fit around your neck. The opening also needs to be big enough for your head to pass through.  I provide two values, and nearly always use the larger of the two.

The smaller value for the ease is the neck width that fits very snugly around the back of your neck.  You may not be able to fit a shirt collar inside this width.  Also, if you make the neck this size, the trim may turn up on the back side of your neck. Many people like this; some hate it. 

The larger value will permit your head to pass through the opening even if you make a very shallow V neck.   I generally use the larger value.




Upper arm (biceps):
Lucia's 2 cents: These are the values in the US standard tables.  My arms are 12 - 13" and I wear a catalog size 6 top and size 8 bottoms. Instead of fiddling with the standard arm size, I suggest a range of ease.  (Actually, many women have slender arms. I'm just constantly astonished at my beefy arms!)
to
to
Armhole Depth: If you have beefy arms, like I do,  you will probably want to make the armholes deeper than recommended here.



Arm Length (Measured from shoulder to wrist measured with elbow bent.)
0
 NA
Full Sleeve Length (From spine to shoulder, then down to wrist measured with elbow bent)
0
Wrist
0
Sweater Length
0

The estimator for women's and petite woman's sizes:

Please read the discussion of US women's sizes if you are familiar with US standard sizes.  (Note: I have made up some sizes! If you are a short, average woman of average build, you may be a size -1X!   Because of the way I did things, taller women with 38" busts may be a size -1X womens, or a size 12!  There are slight differences in recommended values.}

All values are in inches.
Choose your dress size and select "woman" or "petite". (These are based on US catalog sizes.)
 Pull down:
Pull down:

Body dimension
 Ease
 Sweater Dimension
(To enter in "EZ generators)
Fullest part of Bust

Shoulder Width


Neck Width before adding trim: At the absolute minimum, the neck needs to fit around your neck. The opening also needs to be big enough for your head to pass through.  I provide two values, and nearly always use the larger of the two.

The smaller value for the ease is the neck width that fits very snugly around the back of your neck.  Avoid making the V very shallow if you use this width.  Also, if you make the neck this size, the trim may turn up on the back side of your neck. Many people like this; some hate it. 

The larger value will permit your head to pass through the opening even if you make a very shallow V neck.   I generally use the larger value.




Upper arm (biceps):
Lucia's 2 cents:  You know... these arms fit me!

to
to
Armhole Depth:


Arm Length (Measured from shoulder to wrist measured with elbow bent.)
0
 NA
Full Sleeve Length (From spine to shoulder, then down to wrist measured with elbow bent)
0
Wrist
0
Sweater Length
0

The estimator for men:

I have not found separate standards tables for short, medium and tall men.  To compensate for lack of data, I included the design height for each size. 

If the man you are knitting for is much taller than indicated for his chest size, you might want to toggle to the size corresponding to his height. Note the sweater length, shoulder width and and sleeve length for the larger size.  Use his actual chest size to chart the chest. This works fairly well with my husband Jim, who has a size 34" chest, but size 36" shoulders.  You'll have to decide what to do about the armhole depth. Armhole depth is moslty dictated by height, but partially by weight. This is because in a sweater, the armholes are unshaped after the underarm, but  the material has to wrap around your shoulder.


If a man is portly, and his waist is larger than his chest,  I would estimate his shoulder width, neck width, sweater length and sleeve length using his chest size. Then, toggle to his waist size, and write down everything else, including his "chest".

All values are in inches.
Choose your men's chest szie size. (These are based on US catalog sizes.)
 Pull down:

Body dimension
 Ease
 Sweater Dimension
(To enter in "EZ generators)
Fullest part of Chest: Estimate shoulders and other body dimensions using the chest size. If the man's waist is larger than his chest, use the larger of the two and add ease when designing the width of the sweater.

Probable height in inches. I provide this so help you decide if you need to adjust the sweater lenght or arm length.
 feet inches
Shoulder Width


Neck Width before adding trim: At the absolute minimum, the neck needs to fit around your neck. The opening also needs to be big enough for your head to pass through.  I provide two values, and nearly always use the larger of the two.

The smaller value fits very snugly around the back of your neck.  It may not provide room for a shirt collar underneat.  Avoid making the V shallow if you use this width.  Also, if you make the neck this size, the trim may turn up on the back side of your neck. Many people like this; some hate it. 

The larger value will permit your head to pass through the opening even if you make a very shallow V neck.  





Upper arm (biceps):
Lucia's 2 cents:  You know... these arms fit me!

to
to
Armhole Depth:


Arm Length (Measured from shoulder to wrist measured with elbow bent.)
0
 NA
Full Sleeve Length (From spine to shoulder, then down to wrist measured with elbow bent.)
This turns out slightly long on Jim, Robert and David.
0
Wrist
0
Sweater Length: Length is a matter of preference.  Jim, Robert and David like their sweaters longer than this estimator suggests for their chest size.  (I've watched '50s movies. Men wore shorter sweaters then. I suspect that affects the recommended length in the circa '50s standards.)
0



 

US Standard Sizes: (sort of a rant.)


This discussion applies to US Women's, Misses and Half Sizes and the "fiction" of standard sizes.

You visit my site.  You are a knitter, and you want to knit something for a friend. All you know is the wearer says they "wear a Misses 16".  Worse yet, maybe they'll only admit to "medium". 

You'd think that means you could guess their size, right? People visiting the page say: Just tell me what a size 16 is!  KISS!  Ok.. I have. Use the estimator above.

That said, I'm including this discussion for people who might run across US standard sizes.  Then, they'll wonder.. what does she mean "catalog sizes"? Why not use "US Standard Sizes"?

Well, there is a problem. A big problem. 

You can find these US standard sizes published  on the back of sewing pattern envelopes, in design reference books and all over the web. So, I should just use that, right? 

Well, if I use those "standard" sizes, and a knitter visits my site and uses the US standard data  to design for her "Size 16" friend,  it is highly likely the sweater will be too small. Much too small. 

Why will it be too small? Because the vast majority of women estimate their "size" based on the sizes in stores or catalogs.  Strange as it may seem, American stores absolutely, positively, do not use the US standard size charts!  Of course, if you ask a clerk, she'll say they do. That's because she doesn't know. 

The only women who know their US standard size are women who sew or knit clothes for themselves and wear the clothes.

I did some surfing on the web, and I learned something interesting.  There is no "official" US standard for women's clothing. There was a standard developed during the 40's and 50's.  It was the "official" standard until the80's.   At that point, stores had begun to devate from the standard noticably.   The clothing industry realized that, even though everyone claimed to follow the standard, almost no one did.  So, the industry officially abandoned the old tandard. 

They did not establish any official  new standard. However, ASTM (The American Society of Testing and Materials) did publish a new standard.  ASTM is not a government agency, and is not even a clothing agency. It's a trade group consisting of mostly engineers.  My father-in-law, a civil engineer, is an active member of ASTM. I think he evaluates sewage treatment standards!

So, with the help of my knitting email group, I hunted down catalog sizes.  I compared QVC, Victoria's Secret and Lands End catalog size charts, and they all used the same bust, waist and hip dimensions in their size charts.  I also found the ASTM standards.  These catalogs seem to be following the new ASTM standard.  I have provided these sizes in the tables below and use them in the estimators. 

Pattern companies like Butterick, Vogue, Simplicty and McCalls use the old US standard sizes.  They terminology for both are the same. The sizes are wildly different. 

Even though the ASTM standard was never officially adopted by the fashion industry, the ASTM standards match clothes in stores and catalogs more closely than the pattern companies sizes.

So, since you might run across both standards, I provide both.  You will notice that I  list the "catalog" standard and the closest old "US standard size" in the tables below.  For the misses size range, the difference is about 3 to 5 dress size "numbers". That is, a "standard" US size 16 corresponds closely to a US "catalog" 12. (Strangely, the differences in sizes is worse for small sizes.  My theory is: "Yada, yada, yada..high fashion..high priced stores..... yada.... and skinny women are more vain about the number on the size label." )

I also resurrected the historical smaller sizes in the "half size" and "women's" size range.  I've come to the conclusion that the historical misses half size 12 1/2 fits me better than the US standard 12 (aka catalog 8).  A half size 10 1/2 would have fit me perfectly.

Why, oh why did all those half size stores go away?

Given the unreliability of women's clothes sizes, I have some notes to assist you in "guessing sizes" when you can't put a tape measure on the "target" (aka the person who is going to wear the sweater.)

How to measure:
1. BUST Measure under the arms around the fullest part of the bust.
2. WAIST Measure around the smallest part of the waistline.
3. HIPS Measure around the fullest part of the hips, approximately 8" below the waist.


Misses Sizes.

I once read the back of a pattern catalog which said something to the effect of "Misses sizes are the statistically average size for American women. They are also the tallest and slimmest size."  Needless to say, I laughed. 

If you are larger than a "medium", highlighted below, and the  misses size range historically overlaped the women's size range.  It doesn't any more. I stuck the historical size in the Women's table below.  If you are busty, you may want to examine the "Women's" list. If you think you might be a "Woman" instead of a "Miss", consider using the "Women's" estimator.    

Misses  Sizes
  X-Small Small Medium Large X-Large
Bust Measures 34 35 36 37 38.5 40 41.5 43 44.5
Waist Measures 25 26 27 28 29.5 31 32.5 34 35.5
Hip Measures 35.5 36.5 37.5 38.5 40 41.5 43 44.5 46
Catalog size (aka real size!)
 4 6 8 10 12 14 16 18 20
Closest US "standard" size.
(Used by sewing pattern  manufacturers.)
 10 12
 14
16
 18
20
 22
Probable weight (± 10 lb.)
 115 lb.
 125 lb.
 135 lb.
 145 lb.
 155 lb.
 165 lb.
 175 lb.
 180 lb.
 195 lb.
Probable height (± 2")
 5' 4"
 5' 4"
 5' 4.5"
 5' 5"
 5' 4"
 5' 6.5"
 5'6"
 5' 6"
 5' 6.5"

Half Sizes.

When I was a kid, half size stores were everywhere!  This size range fits many, many women correctly.  Notice that the lowest end of the range, which no longer exists in stores, corresponds to shorter women of normal weight.  The upper range is plump, or as many people on my knitting list like to say "fluffy". 

I've noticed that the smallest size half size estimator matches my proportions better than the misses range!  So, if you are shaped like I am, you might want to give this a try!

Marketing forces split the half size range into "petites" and"women's petites".  You'll find both ranges listed here and available in my estimators. To make my estimators work,  I've extended the "Women's Petite" range to include what might  be called catalog sizees -1X, and 0X.   (Maybe you'd rather be a "medium" or a "large" instead of anything X?  I kind of like the idea of wearing a -1!)


Women's Petite (Half Sizes)
  -1X
0X
1X 2X 3X
Bust Measures 36
 38
 40
 42
 43.5 45.5 47.5 49.5 51.5
Waist Measures 28
 30
 32
 34
 35 37 39 41 43
Hip Measures 38
 40
 42
 44
 45.5 47.5 49.5 52 53.5
Catalog size na
 na
 na
 na
 18W 20W 22W 24W 26W
Closest US  standard size
 12 1/2
 14 1/2
 16 1/2
 18 1/2
 20 1/2
 221 1/1
 24 1/2
 26 1/2
 28 1/2
Probable weight (± 10 lb.) 125 lb
 140 lb
 155 lb
 170 lb
180 lb.
 190 lb.
 215 lb.
 225 lb.
 235 lb.
Probable height (± 2") 5' 0.5"
 5' 1"
 5' 1.5"
 5' 2"
 5' 2.5"
 5' 3"
 5' 3"
 5' 3.5"
 5'4"


Women's Sizes

Like Half Sizes, the Women's size range used to include smaller sizes! 

Notice that size US standard Woman's size 34 corresponds very closely to the US Standard 16 (which is now US catalog 12.) Both have a size 38" bust.   The difference between the two? A woman who fit the standard misses 16 had a smaller waist and bigger hips and larger shoulders than a woman who wear a woman's 34.   Looked at another way, a "Woman" with similar shoulder and hip size to a "Miss" carried weight in the  bust!

Women's Sizes:
(I made the lower range up to match the "US standards")
  -1X
0X
1X 2X 3X
Bust Measures
38
 40
 42
 44 46 48 50 52 54
Waist Measures

30
 32
 34
 35.5 37.5 39.5 41.5 43.5 45.5
Hip Measures
39
 41
 43
 46 48 50 52 54 56
Catalog size na
 na
 na
 na
 18W 20W 22W 24W 26W 28W
Closest US standard "women's" size
34
 36
 38
 40
 42
 44
 46
 48
 50
Probable weight (± 10 lb.)
145 lb.
 160 lb.
 175 lb.
 190 lb.
 205 lb.
 220 lb.
 235 lb.
 250 lb.
 265 lb.
Probably height (± 2")
5' 5"
 5' 5.5"
 5' 6"
 5' 6"
 5' 6.5"
 5' 6.5" 5' 6.5" 5' 6.5" 5' 6.5"


Juniors

Juniors, which suggests  youth, still exists. It's not that much different form Misses sizes.  I need to surf the web to learn whether Juniors sizes have drifted as much  as Misses sizse.

Children, teen boys, teen girls.
I need to surf the web to see if kids, and teens  size designations have shifted!  Then I'll write the calculator.